So....I have no idea what road I am embarking on here....I realize you are busy and have no time to “fix” the republican party....also, I am not sure if my motives are pure. Do I want the republican party fixed? Why? I am a democrat.
However, O.Z. , I do have great fondness for our repartee...in truth, yours is perhaps the only conservative opinion that I actively seek out and respect....and there is something we agree on, even if unsaid or poorly clarified....I think what has gone wrong in this country is in fact the demise of vigorous debate...I do not believe that the answer to any of our problems is a conservative idea or a liberal idea....but actually a well considered idea taking into account both points of view....that is what has been missing, really from both sides, but the Bush Admin turned it into an art form....
From the liberal point of view (and I do not speak for all of them, only me), the real problem with the GOP is that it has become saddled with the far right social morons. Your defense of Sarah Palin was striking to me, since it did seem that maybe the Kool-Aid had been spilled into your Cabernet, but we will forgive that....you were supporting a ticket, and just like I support Biden without too much real enthusiasm, so too did you support Palin...
But....in the cold light of day, you must see the schism between the fiscal conservatism favoring a diminished government and a support of pure entrepreneurial spirit/innovation...and the NASCAR republicans who are overtly or covertly racist, fear anything that does not have a cross around its neck, and want to limit privacy. To us liberals, it is that part of your party that we despise. I can handle the “lets spend our money wisely” stuff....important to be considered all the time! The other stuff...the social conservatives...let them get their own damn party...or the fiscal conservatives need to get their own...you guys need a divorce...badly.
Ironic, because the democrats have this big tent mentality and it drives me nuts that we get so scattered on hot button issues....same sex marriage, abortion rights (In my opinion, those should be left to the individual and the state should be out of it entirely)...we also are somewhat beholden to the Unions (have no love for them), and other interest groups that I’d like to send packing...so neither party is perfect, and there does need to be a party made up of social liberals and fiscal conservatives, but I doubt that will happen.
But frankly, the GOP seems like it is becoming a party of the South....not withstanding the Midwest, where it appears that both parties have some influence....Maybe it is just one election cycle, but the problems seem more robust than that....I read this article...you will of course dismiss it out of hand, but I think the arguments are cogent and if we want a responsible right to offset the left, there will need to be some structural changes...the demographics have morphed radically....if the youth vote and the emergent minority vote continues to flex its muscle, the republicans could be wandering around aimlessly for quite some time, and that is not good for a two party system (now if we had a 3 or 4 party system, as I would prefer, then it wouldn’t matter)...
So read, or don’t....but it got me to thinking...
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-11-06/the-republicans-are-now-the-stupid-party/
Best...
Hugo
_______
Thanks Hugo. Sorry, I don’t think that is a well reasoned article. Some of the stuff he cites on Palin is just false, regardless of her merits otherwise. This guy has little credibility in my book. There are lots of interesting, centrist writers out there, this guy is not one of them.
After an election, there are always big sweeping pronouncements about how one party or another is finished, dominant, etc. You may recall that after the 2004 election, there was a bunch of talk about how the Republicans were becoming the permanent majority. We saw how long that lasted—two years. This just reflects the human need to wrap an overarching conceptual framework around any major event, regardless of the degree to which random factors caused the outcome.
A huge number of people in the country shift back and forth between the parties depending on what is happening with big economic and political forces. Keep in mind that this “landslide” election was decided by 7percentage points. In other words, if 3.6% move to the other side, the Republicans win.
Obama got elected because Bush started a war which became very unpopular, we experienced a momentous financial crisis after a year of lackluster economic performance, Obama was a smooth and smart politician, with no record to criticize, and lots of people could feel morally good about voting for a black president. A bunch of uncorrelated factors came together to allow this to happen.
You discuss certain elements in your party as unpalatable, but clearly they are more palatable to you than the extremists on the Republican side. So I see you as a center left person, not a true centrist.
-O.Z.
_____________
O.Z.:
I am absolutely not a centrist.....I agree...I am to the left of middle on most things, including the size of gov’t etc.....what I am saying, and what I think was present in the article I sent along, was the importance of having a strong voice of dissent present....
I agree that after an election the losers cry that the sky is falling, and so perhaps you are right....
However, I think the permanent majority “built” by Rove, et al, was built by drawing in that portion of the population that had been disenfranchised by the parties for the most part over the years....but as they drew them in, they seemed to take on a greater portion of the power....McCains’ 1st mistake, many months ago was attending the commencement at Liberty University and prostrating himself before Jerry Falwell....his wife and daughters are pro-choice, and he has pretty much dodged that issue until forced to accept the “plank” of the party....calling Obama a Muslim, a terrorist etc. were shameful attempts to play to the darker nature of his “base”.
And the William Ayers thing is truly despicable....This was a guy trying to stop a war, and in his youth, destroyed property.....no lives were lost or injuries...(umm...abortion clinic bombers might want to reconsider their patriotic status)...there is no defense for his actions, other than youth and passion run amok....But the guy is also a 6 year LITLLE LEAGUE coach--I did so for 8 years...does that mean I am palling around with terrorists?
The point is, we talk about everything but the issues....and the time for that is drawing to a close...we need smart conservative thinkers interacting with smart liberal thinkers to find a path to lead this country forward.....you speak of the narrowness of the victory....but really under almost any comparison, for a presidential election, this was a big margin....and surely there will be some shifting to the right...the pendulum does not stop...is it all the way to the left? (I say not quite yet), but soon it will begin to track rightward...but the real story is how much faster it swings nowadays...
I think the one thing you overlook is the strength of the repudiation of the Republicans....many good republicans were tossed out simply because of their brand name (now perhaps their replacements will be good high quality democrats, so perhaps it is not a net loss, but who knows). There is a hunger in this country for the perception of fairness....you may refer to it as welfare, but regardless of how you label it....there does seem to be the sense that more and more of the wealth is gravitating to less and less of the people. At some point, the game becomes so rigged that it is not possible to play anymore. I would agree that we walk the line between becoming a nation of underachievers (if we reward lack of effort), and the “doers” ....but I actually think that is a small percentage of folks who simply want to coast through life....that is never too great a life anyway....living on welfare, food stamps and Medicaid is simply sustenance....there is little joy in it, I am sure....most folks want to work, and some want to excel....
Oh well....we will not agree on these things....but I keep prodding to see if the common ground can be fleshed out....
Hugo
_____
Hugo:
Ok, you’re a moderate leftist.
Don’t throw around falsehoods. McCain didn’t call Obama a muslim. Yes people in the right wing did, but lots of lies about McCain were promoted by leftists.
Disagree with you on Ayers. The Weather Underground was the violent fringe of the anti-war movement. They generally warned people ahead of time but not always. There were a few bombings that were intended to kill people. For example, Ayers’ girlfriend at the time was killed when a nail bomb she was building blew up. That bomb was intended for an officers dance on a military base. Four or five of the group were killed in that event, and I think it was after that they renounced trying to kill people. Still, after that they bombed a bathroom in the Pentagon that caused a lot of damage and could have killed someone. They were on the FBI’s ten most wanted list. He never did his time, he got a mistrial because of prosecutorial misconduct. He is famous for saying “Guilty as hell, free as a bird.” You seem way too cavalier about his activities, and the fact that he’s never repented. What would you think if Spencer was arrested for setting a nail bomb to protest the war? Or if one of their bombs had gone off in a building where you father had worked? I think it drove McCain nuts, because at the time he was a POW; he’d paid a huge sacrifice for the war, and Ayers was protesting that war, and McCain’s actions, as immoral. No, the fact that you coached little league does not make you a terrorist, no more than the fact that I used to live in Hyde Park, his neighborhood. Lots of things about Ayers are normal. Some have called that phenomenon the banality of evil.
The interesting point about this is the cultural divide it illustrates. Obama was a colleague because it served Obama’s purposes at the time. It was not a problem for Obama, and you accept it as no big deal. For people like McCain, it goes to the question of character; you simply do not associate with, or benefit from someone who would do things like that against the country.
-OZ
__________
OZ!
However, O.Z. , I do have great fondness for our repartee...in truth, yours is perhaps the only conservative opinion that I actively seek out and respect....and there is something we agree on, even if unsaid or poorly clarified....I think what has gone wrong in this country is in fact the demise of vigorous debate...I do not believe that the answer to any of our problems is a conservative idea or a liberal idea....but actually a well considered idea taking into account both points of view....that is what has been missing, really from both sides, but the Bush Admin turned it into an art form....
From the liberal point of view (and I do not speak for all of them, only me), the real problem with the GOP is that it has become saddled with the far right social morons. Your defense of Sarah Palin was striking to me, since it did seem that maybe the Kool-Aid had been spilled into your Cabernet, but we will forgive that....you were supporting a ticket, and just like I support Biden without too much real enthusiasm, so too did you support Palin...
But....in the cold light of day, you must see the schism between the fiscal conservatism favoring a diminished government and a support of pure entrepreneurial spirit/innovation...and the NASCAR republicans who are overtly or covertly racist, fear anything that does not have a cross around its neck, and want to limit privacy. To us liberals, it is that part of your party that we despise. I can handle the “lets spend our money wisely” stuff....important to be considered all the time! The other stuff...the social conservatives...let them get their own damn party...or the fiscal conservatives need to get their own...you guys need a divorce...badly.
Ironic, because the democrats have this big tent mentality and it drives me nuts that we get so scattered on hot button issues....same sex marriage, abortion rights (In my opinion, those should be left to the individual and the state should be out of it entirely)...we also are somewhat beholden to the Unions (have no love for them), and other interest groups that I’d like to send packing...so neither party is perfect, and there does need to be a party made up of social liberals and fiscal conservatives, but I doubt that will happen.
But frankly, the GOP seems like it is becoming a party of the South....not withstanding the Midwest, where it appears that both parties have some influence....Maybe it is just one election cycle, but the problems seem more robust than that....I read this article...you will of course dismiss it out of hand, but I think the arguments are cogent and if we want a responsible right to offset the left, there will need to be some structural changes...the demographics have morphed radically....if the youth vote and the emergent minority vote continues to flex its muscle, the republicans could be wandering around aimlessly for quite some time, and that is not good for a two party system (now if we had a 3 or 4 party system, as I would prefer, then it wouldn’t matter)...
So read, or don’t....but it got me to thinking...
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-11-06/the-republicans-are-now-the-stupid-party/
Best...
Hugo
_______
Thanks Hugo. Sorry, I don’t think that is a well reasoned article. Some of the stuff he cites on Palin is just false, regardless of her merits otherwise. This guy has little credibility in my book. There are lots of interesting, centrist writers out there, this guy is not one of them.
After an election, there are always big sweeping pronouncements about how one party or another is finished, dominant, etc. You may recall that after the 2004 election, there was a bunch of talk about how the Republicans were becoming the permanent majority. We saw how long that lasted—two years. This just reflects the human need to wrap an overarching conceptual framework around any major event, regardless of the degree to which random factors caused the outcome.
A huge number of people in the country shift back and forth between the parties depending on what is happening with big economic and political forces. Keep in mind that this “landslide” election was decided by 7percentage points. In other words, if 3.6% move to the other side, the Republicans win.
Obama got elected because Bush started a war which became very unpopular, we experienced a momentous financial crisis after a year of lackluster economic performance, Obama was a smooth and smart politician, with no record to criticize, and lots of people could feel morally good about voting for a black president. A bunch of uncorrelated factors came together to allow this to happen.
You discuss certain elements in your party as unpalatable, but clearly they are more palatable to you than the extremists on the Republican side. So I see you as a center left person, not a true centrist.
-O.Z.
_____________
O.Z.:
I am absolutely not a centrist.....I agree...I am to the left of middle on most things, including the size of gov’t etc.....what I am saying, and what I think was present in the article I sent along, was the importance of having a strong voice of dissent present....
I agree that after an election the losers cry that the sky is falling, and so perhaps you are right....
However, I think the permanent majority “built” by Rove, et al, was built by drawing in that portion of the population that had been disenfranchised by the parties for the most part over the years....but as they drew them in, they seemed to take on a greater portion of the power....McCains’ 1st mistake, many months ago was attending the commencement at Liberty University and prostrating himself before Jerry Falwell....his wife and daughters are pro-choice, and he has pretty much dodged that issue until forced to accept the “plank” of the party....calling Obama a Muslim, a terrorist etc. were shameful attempts to play to the darker nature of his “base”.
And the William Ayers thing is truly despicable....This was a guy trying to stop a war, and in his youth, destroyed property.....no lives were lost or injuries...(umm...abortion clinic bombers might want to reconsider their patriotic status)...there is no defense for his actions, other than youth and passion run amok....But the guy is also a 6 year LITLLE LEAGUE coach--I did so for 8 years...does that mean I am palling around with terrorists?
The point is, we talk about everything but the issues....and the time for that is drawing to a close...we need smart conservative thinkers interacting with smart liberal thinkers to find a path to lead this country forward.....you speak of the narrowness of the victory....but really under almost any comparison, for a presidential election, this was a big margin....and surely there will be some shifting to the right...the pendulum does not stop...is it all the way to the left? (I say not quite yet), but soon it will begin to track rightward...but the real story is how much faster it swings nowadays...
I think the one thing you overlook is the strength of the repudiation of the Republicans....many good republicans were tossed out simply because of their brand name (now perhaps their replacements will be good high quality democrats, so perhaps it is not a net loss, but who knows). There is a hunger in this country for the perception of fairness....you may refer to it as welfare, but regardless of how you label it....there does seem to be the sense that more and more of the wealth is gravitating to less and less of the people. At some point, the game becomes so rigged that it is not possible to play anymore. I would agree that we walk the line between becoming a nation of underachievers (if we reward lack of effort), and the “doers” ....but I actually think that is a small percentage of folks who simply want to coast through life....that is never too great a life anyway....living on welfare, food stamps and Medicaid is simply sustenance....there is little joy in it, I am sure....most folks want to work, and some want to excel....
Oh well....we will not agree on these things....but I keep prodding to see if the common ground can be fleshed out....
Hugo
_____
Hugo:
Ok, you’re a moderate leftist.
Don’t throw around falsehoods. McCain didn’t call Obama a muslim. Yes people in the right wing did, but lots of lies about McCain were promoted by leftists.
Disagree with you on Ayers. The Weather Underground was the violent fringe of the anti-war movement. They generally warned people ahead of time but not always. There were a few bombings that were intended to kill people. For example, Ayers’ girlfriend at the time was killed when a nail bomb she was building blew up. That bomb was intended for an officers dance on a military base. Four or five of the group were killed in that event, and I think it was after that they renounced trying to kill people. Still, after that they bombed a bathroom in the Pentagon that caused a lot of damage and could have killed someone. They were on the FBI’s ten most wanted list. He never did his time, he got a mistrial because of prosecutorial misconduct. He is famous for saying “Guilty as hell, free as a bird.” You seem way too cavalier about his activities, and the fact that he’s never repented. What would you think if Spencer was arrested for setting a nail bomb to protest the war? Or if one of their bombs had gone off in a building where you father had worked? I think it drove McCain nuts, because at the time he was a POW; he’d paid a huge sacrifice for the war, and Ayers was protesting that war, and McCain’s actions, as immoral. No, the fact that you coached little league does not make you a terrorist, no more than the fact that I used to live in Hyde Park, his neighborhood. Lots of things about Ayers are normal. Some have called that phenomenon the banality of evil.
The interesting point about this is the cultural divide it illustrates. Obama was a colleague because it served Obama’s purposes at the time. It was not a problem for Obama, and you accept it as no big deal. For people like McCain, it goes to the question of character; you simply do not associate with, or benefit from someone who would do things like that against the country.
-OZ
__________
OZ!
And those that applaud the bombings, attempted bombings and threatened bombings of abortion clinics...heroes to the right?
Our nation was founded on subversive activity....we were being subjugated and rose up against the tyranny...it was not civil disobedience....
I am not defending Ayers as much as saying that was 4 decades ago...and as someone who sits on 4 different boards including serving at one time or another as president and vice president of separate boards, I can assure you that I have no idea what the back grounds are of the folks that sit amongst me....in one case, a person was exposed as a pedophile (on Dateline NBC of all things)....of course he was immediately removed from his post, but had his “exposure” come a few years later, he would never have been dismissed (I was serving as president of the board at the time, and so I wrote a pretty definitive letter distancing him from myself)....there are so many points here....Ayers acted against the war...a war that was a totally wrong headed endeavor that is pretty much agreed by all to have been an horrific mistake...who was in the wrong here? A government waging an unjust war or those that would stop at nothing to oppose said war? I am descended from individuals that fought in the Revolutionary War....that was at some level a terrorist act against England...I know this is a bit of hyperbole....but really, perspective is everything...I do not think it right what Ayers did, but regardless of the reason, he is a free man, living in a society, and from all accounts, doing GOOD in that society....let it go! Obama did not throw a bomb...he sat on a board, went to his house...what if you were his neighbor...would you move on principle? Guilt by association is a pretty flimsy basis for damnation.
Finally, you say I am way too cavalier about his activities...OK, I can cop to that...I confess I am only marginally informed...however, I think you are way too cavalier in accepting the lawlessness of our country invading a sovereign nation for little more reason than to execute its leader....tens of thousands have died...most of them INNOCENT...guilty only of living in the nation we chose to set up our military base in.....that blood is on my hands, your hands...and frankly, I have admonished MY SON and HIS FRIENDS for not taking a more active roll in opposing that war...not throwing bombs, to be sure...but how about picking up a sign and marching, writing a letter, arranging a “sit-in”....we accepted this war with complacency, and I am angry at my nation for letting it happen.
IN some sense, Bush is lucky the economy tanked...if things were rosy, I’d want the new administration to dig through the files, find the dirt that is surely there, and go after these criminals that took our country into a quagmire we will likely have difficulty extracting ourselves from. When we touch upon issues of war, my friend, there is little middle ground. I am not a leftist in this regard; do not be fooled. I favor a strong and well prepared military...there are just wars and good reasons to fight....and with the might of this United States, the proper course is always to fight only as a last measure...so it was with Roosevelt...even Lincoln. ( World War 1, sort of a hazy area for me, I fear) A hasty trigger finger is a dangerous thing in a world well armed with implements of Armageddon.
Our nation was founded on subversive activity....we were being subjugated and rose up against the tyranny...it was not civil disobedience....
I am not defending Ayers as much as saying that was 4 decades ago...and as someone who sits on 4 different boards including serving at one time or another as president and vice president of separate boards, I can assure you that I have no idea what the back grounds are of the folks that sit amongst me....in one case, a person was exposed as a pedophile (on Dateline NBC of all things)....of course he was immediately removed from his post, but had his “exposure” come a few years later, he would never have been dismissed (I was serving as president of the board at the time, and so I wrote a pretty definitive letter distancing him from myself)....there are so many points here....Ayers acted against the war...a war that was a totally wrong headed endeavor that is pretty much agreed by all to have been an horrific mistake...who was in the wrong here? A government waging an unjust war or those that would stop at nothing to oppose said war? I am descended from individuals that fought in the Revolutionary War....that was at some level a terrorist act against England...I know this is a bit of hyperbole....but really, perspective is everything...I do not think it right what Ayers did, but regardless of the reason, he is a free man, living in a society, and from all accounts, doing GOOD in that society....let it go! Obama did not throw a bomb...he sat on a board, went to his house...what if you were his neighbor...would you move on principle? Guilt by association is a pretty flimsy basis for damnation.
Finally, you say I am way too cavalier about his activities...OK, I can cop to that...I confess I am only marginally informed...however, I think you are way too cavalier in accepting the lawlessness of our country invading a sovereign nation for little more reason than to execute its leader....tens of thousands have died...most of them INNOCENT...guilty only of living in the nation we chose to set up our military base in.....that blood is on my hands, your hands...and frankly, I have admonished MY SON and HIS FRIENDS for not taking a more active roll in opposing that war...not throwing bombs, to be sure...but how about picking up a sign and marching, writing a letter, arranging a “sit-in”....we accepted this war with complacency, and I am angry at my nation for letting it happen.
IN some sense, Bush is lucky the economy tanked...if things were rosy, I’d want the new administration to dig through the files, find the dirt that is surely there, and go after these criminals that took our country into a quagmire we will likely have difficulty extracting ourselves from. When we touch upon issues of war, my friend, there is little middle ground. I am not a leftist in this regard; do not be fooled. I favor a strong and well prepared military...there are just wars and good reasons to fight....and with the might of this United States, the proper course is always to fight only as a last measure...so it was with Roosevelt...even Lincoln. ( World War 1, sort of a hazy area for me, I fear) A hasty trigger finger is a dangerous thing in a world well armed with implements of Armageddon.
-Hugo
